Jon Oberheide is the co-founder and CTO of Duo Security which was acquired by Cisco for $2.4 billion. On today’s episode, Jon Sakoda speaks with Jon Oberheide about his personal journey to where he is today, including the “not illegal” way he met his Duo co-founder in a back stairwell.
Jon Oberheide is the co-founder and CTO of Duo Security which was acquired by Cisco for $2.4 billion. On today’s episode, Jon Sakoda speaks with Jon Oberheide about his personal journey to where he is today, including the “not illegal” way he met his Duo co-founder in a back stairwell.
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JON OBERHEIDE: We got the phone call, which was just a complete surprise out of left field, and had to go back to our team and say, deal’s off. This thing that we thought was a momentous milestone for the company and our shareholders, it’s off. We’re still going. Get back on the road and keep executing.
JON SAKODA: Welcome to the Decibel Podcast. I am so excited to welcome my good friend Jon Oberheide. He is a serial entrepreneur, and mostly recently was the co-founder and CTO of a company called Duo Security. Duo was recently acquired by Cisco for $2.4 billion. Jon has been a great friend of us here at Decibel, and I’m so excited to welcome you to the show.
JON OBERHEIDE: Thank you, Jon. And I don’t know what a serial entrepreneur means, but…
JON SAKODA: Serial entrepreneur means you have started more than one company.
JON OBERHEIDE: Barely. Barely.
JON SAKODA: So, well, let’s get started with that. So, I think it would be fun for everybody just to introduce yourself, to talk about when you first thought you would be an entrepreneur, and maybe tell people about some of your first entrepreneurial endeavors, before you started Duo.
JON OBERHEIDE: Yeah. I always had a little bit of, you know, innate curiosity and maybe a little hint of subversiveness, which I think made security a natural path and profession for me. And I had a partner in high school that was my best friend, and we were doing things like early web design, which led into web hosting. And we started an online web hosting company called Focal Host. I think that was like a formative experience in the early days of high school for us, in that there was a lot of technical work, but there was also other aspects of figuring out how to provide an actual, you know, hosting service to customers, like doing demand gen, and pricing and packaging, and customer support, all with a two-man crew.
JON SAKODA: Wait. So was this your—technically your first company? And how old were you when you started Focal Host?
JON OBERHEIDE: I want to say maybe like freshman or sophomore year of high school. So, we were pretty young. And that was the first kind of exposure, I think, to, you know, recurring revenue—that two people could run a business that had an incrementally increasing customer base with like, sub-linear scale of the effort required, and never even talking to those customers. They didn’t know who we were. And that was predating SaaS. It was called ASPs, application service providers.
JON SAKODA: That’s right. That’s right. And as I recall, it wasn’t just called Focal Host. Didn’t it have another name?
JON OBERHEIDE: We had an offshoot, which maybe speaks to the subversive or creative thinking that we had from Focal Host, called Jesus Host. And it was a Christian web host, oriented towards those communities and websites that wanted to, you know, host their website with a provider that aligned to their beliefs.
JON SAKODA: And Jon, are you religious? Are you of Christian faith?
JON OBERHEIDE: I would classify myself as atheist, and my partner was half-Jewish, so this was a stretch. But in hindsight, I feel like, hey, we actually did offer legitimate, useful service to those sites, so I don’t feel too terrible about it.
JON SAKODA: Wait. So take us back. Was this your first job?
JON OBERHEIDE: I did have—so, I will claim that my first and only real job I had was actually working at Quiznos making subs. And that’s a real empathy-building experience, working in food service or retail, or anywhere where you’re interacting with normal human beings. But I find it hard to call any of my other jobs real. I did a lot of independent security research, did some internships, did the PhD program, and worked at Duo. And none of those seem—they’re all such wacky, unique experiences that it’s hard to classify them as jobs. I’m picturing the super cheesy motivational, you know, quote poster of, “When you love what you do, it doesn’t feel like work.” But none of them really felt real. They were all, you know, just kind of interesting learning experiences in different sorts of ways. Quiznos felt like a real job.
JON SAKODA: Oh, without a doubt. But it sounds like you don’t really like real jobs.
JON OBERHEIDE: If I had the choice, no.
JON SAKODA: So, talk to me about how you eventually decided to get a PhD, and then how that eventually led to the founding of Duo.
JON OBERHEIDE: Yeah. I think it kind of just goes back to, I knew I didn’t want a traditional job. You know, did an undergrad in CS. People are graduating and going to Facebook and Google—maybe not Facebook back then. But, you know, your traditional tech companies. And I knew that’s what I didn’t want. But I didn’t know what I did want quite yet. And so, the PhD program and the graduate program was kind of just a fallback. It was like, hey, I really enjoy doing the security research that I’ve been doing on my own, sort of outside the curriculum of the university. And, hey, I could go into the graduate program and continue to do this, and see what happens, you know? It was just kind of honestly mostly a holding pattern. I didn’t have ambition to get a PhD and become a faculty member, or become a professor, or go to a research lab, or anything like that. But I thought, hey, there’s a bunch of people in this program that are also really creative, interesting, deep experts in their particular area of research or thesis, and fortunately joined a research group that had a very sort of commercial bent to it, in that there was a lot of—several startups that came out of that small group, and was not so academically inclined.
JON SAKODA: And I think this is a good time to probably bring in the story about how you met your co-founder at Duo, Dug Song. So, you were in a PhD program at the University of Michigan. You are somewhat of a well-regarded security researcher, right? You had been publishing research at the time. How did you meet Dug?
JON OBERHEIDE: I actually met Dug before I came to the university. It was when I was still in high school. And I was coming to Ann Arbor, let’s say, in the context of our web hosting business, of Focal Host. So, we would do our demand gen campaigns, where we’d collect a lot of email addresses, and we would send out email campaigns. Potentially, one can consider those spam or unsolicited advertisements. But, you know, that’s—I mean, we were outbound ADRs, essentially. But we would collect these massive email lists of like, you know, 500,000 webmaster addresses that would be maybe relevant for our hosting service. And we would drive from southeastern Michigan, where I grew up, to Ann Arbor, maybe about an hour away. And we would go to the Starbucks coffee shop, and we would buy a coffee, open our laptops, jump on an open WiFi, and then send out half a million spam emails while sipping our coffee.
JON SAKODA: Wait. So, in order to make sure that your company did not look like a spammer, you would go and borrow other people’s networks so that you could send 500,000 emails at a time.
JON OBERHEIDE: Yes.
JON SAKODA: Did I get that story right?
JON OBERHEIDE: Exactly. And, you know, a safe distance from our residence. Did not want to send it from our home internet.
JON SAKODA: Was that legal?
JON OBERHEIDE: I don’t know when that was compared to when the CAN-SPAM Act was passed. But we were very aware that we were under 18, and that the—
JON SAKODA: So, it was not illegal.
JON OBERHEIDE: It was a gray area. It was the early internet. Yeah, so that Starbucks was in the same building that Arbor Networks, which Dug was a chief architect and founding employee of, was based out of that same building. And so, as we’re down there drinking coffee and sending spam emails for our pseudo business that we have, we notice there’s an open access point called Arbor Networks. We’re like, oh my gosh. We know of Arbor. We know of Dug from Dsniff and other security tools that he had released. Why would their network be open? Let’s hop on there. Let’s sniff around, see what’s attached to the network. And we couldn’t get a great signal. It was on like, the third floor of the building. So we crept up the back stairwell. And sure enough, as we’re scanning or end-mapping the network from the stairwell, Dug walks out the back stairwell door and sees two shady-looking teenagers with laptops and hoodies on just in his company’s hallway, and kind of gave us a weird side eye and then walked past us.
So, that was the first time that we interacted, unofficially, with each other. And as it turns out, the cherry on top to the story is that that was a honeypot access point that they set up to catch enterprising hackers that were poking around, so.
JON SAKODA: You know, just so that people understand, a honeypot is a network-attached device that is intended to trap creative hackers. It’s intended to look like something you should hack and lure creative people like you to potentially hack into their network. And it’s designed maybe to find attackers, but it’s maybe in his case designed to find interesting people.
JON OBERHEIDE: Yeah. So that was unofficially the first time we met. And then coming to Ann Arbor for school, we spent some time working with each other directly at Arbor Networks. And then, you know, eventually said, “Hey, we should—it would be interesting to start a company together.” But it took many years before the stars finally aligned for the right opportunity and the right stage in our personal and professional lives to connect. And 2009 came around, and it was a good time to go start a company together.
JON SAKODA: Well, let’s talk about that story, because 2009 was one of the worst times to start a company. So it might not have been obvious that that was a great time to start a company. Yet the two of you decided to start something. What was that like? And then, famously, you did not finish your PhD program, right? You were very, very close, and still decided to start a company. So, let’s go back in time. Tell us that story.
JON OBERHEIDE: Yeah. Well, I think there’s two things there. One, ’08-’09 financial crisis. Might not seem like a good time to start a company. But I think starting a company in a downturn or recession or market correction is actually really, really healthy. Maybe it’s not the best from a valuation standpoint, but in the early years, valuation doesn’t matter that much. You’re focused on building a really good product and making sure you’re solving customer problems. And from that perspective, you know, selling to customers when their belts have been tightened in a recession is actually a really, really good thing in my mind. It makes sure that you’re getting really high quality signal that you’re solving a worthwhile use case. You’re ensuring that you’re painkillers versus vitamins.
When things are frothy and bullish and happy, and everyone’s got a free budget to throw around, you can get a lot of false signal, that you think you might be solving a useful problem by getting a lot of small paid pilots. But suddenly, when the bad times come around, you’re the first thing to be cut off the CFO’s list. So, I think it’s advantageous in the long run to make sure, in the early stages, that you’re really honing in on something that’s critical for your customers.
And from a personal standpoint, you know, I was ABD, all but dissertation, which means I was like, the 90% finish line of the PhD program. Usually that last 10% takes another couple years. You do a little more research. Your thesis committee tells you to go off and check out these other ideas and avenues for your thesis. And I said, that doesn’t sound exciting. I’ve already written a lot of papers. Why don’t I just start a company instead? And so, it seemed like the worst case—worst time to drop out. In reality, it turned out to be the best time to drop out. And Dug was coming off a gig at Barracuda Networks, so our timelines kind of aligned from that perspective. And we went off and started the company.
And I will say that I did go back and actually finish my degree, my thesis, a couple years later. Just wrote one more paper, submitted it, put my thesis forward, and did my defense, and went back to working at Duo.
JON SAKODA: So, it strikes me, this is a great time to ask a question that I’ve been dying to ask. So, you, in high school, were an atheist and started a company that was called Jesus Host. You ran around and borrowed other people’s networks to send spam emails from Starbucks and Arbor Networks and other places. You’re sneaking into stairwells. You are dropping out of your PhD program when everyone says, “Just hurry up and finish it.” So, in some ways, you’re just constantly doing something that maybe you’re not supposed to be doing, or everybody else thinks you should be doing something a little differently. So, where does that come from? And is that a trait that’s helped you become a successful founder?
JON OBERHEIDE: Yeah. I think—I don’t know. I think that, yeah, good hackers have that inherent curiosity and just a little bit of subversiveness that, like, you know, there’s rules that exist. There’s guidelines and boundaries. And smart hackers figure out how to bend those rules or to violate those rules. So a lot of really great hackers went in those different directions. Some ended up literally in prison, and some ended up founding great companies, because they used those powers for constructive purposes, for good, for innovation. So, I don’t know where that comes from personally. But it’s just kind of how I approach life. If I see an object, I think of how it’s designed and what were people not thinking of when they built it that way. Or you see a process or a system, and you think of like, well, you know, what if we reconstructed that in some completely different form or applied it in a different way?
So, I think those traits are beneficial in startups because a lot of startups are literally looking at the world through a different lens and saying, “This is really dumb. Why are we doing this this way?” And oftentimes, you know, it’s a little bit of the rules, the regulations, whatever in place, are what’s preventing this new way of thinking or new way of doing something, and therefore, we need to figure out a way around that or build a business in a very different way that’s unlike what’s been done before.
Something in common between Dug and I is the offensive side of security is very easy. Showing how broken everything is is like, super trivial. Software sucks. It’s full of bugs. There’s lot of constraints in designing and building secure systems. And what’s a lot harder is actually building things that help the problem. That was a lot of the intent behind Duo, is let’s tackle the hard problems. Let’s try to atone for our sins on the offensive side by trying to improve the situation on the defensive side.
JON SAKODA: Well, let’s talk about that journey, because as I recall, you guys had a very long list of startups, or startup ideas. And you eventually landed on mobile-based two-factor authentication. So, maybe take everybody through the journey. What were all the ideas that you initially had? And then why did you land on authentication as being the most important piece of the puzzle?
JON OBERHEIDE: Yeah, there’s lots of founders that are problem out. They’re like, “Hey, I’ve experienced this problem. And turns out, lots of people have this problem. And I’m gonna go build a solution to this problem.” And we were not that. That is very powerful, because you know something so deeply, you’re so passionate about it, and you want to go tackle that specific issue in the world. We’re very much—we want to build a great security company. And let’s go explore that problem state. What is the set of problems that we could go tackle? And that’s how we started the company. Let’s brainstorm a list of, you know, next generation antivirus, yet another better firewall, cloud version of everything you can imagine, including cloud VPN, which I guess now is like Zscaler. We had random DLP ideas. We had everything under the sun. Basically every category in security, we probably had 30 or 40 different items on the list.
And what really ended up kind of honing that list down was, surprise, talking to customers and chatting with some customers that were not your typical Fortune 500 enterprises with sophisticated security programs, but mid-market manufacturing companies in Michigan. And we would talk to customers that’d say, “Hey, yeah, we’re getting hit by phishing attacks. Attackers are starting to go downmarket and not just go after kind of the top 1% of companies out there.” And they were essentially defenseless. They said, “Hey, we’re getting hit with phishing attacks. We know the answer is strong authentication. But we literally cannot afford or deploy or manage things like RSA Secure ID, which was the large incumbent in that market space. The product doesn’t work. We don’t have the expertise. Users are actively rejecting it because it’s so painful.” And so, they were just kind of sitting ducks for these large-scale credential theft and phishing attacks.
And so, you know, the problem was obvious at the time. The solution was obvious in generalities with strong authentication. But the solutions in the market were just not there. And we—you know, we eventually had to say to ourselves, this is not a sexy problem to solve. Strong authentication, knowing who’s logging in on the other end of a computer is not incredibly exciting or compelling, but it is the problem to be solved for the next generation, especially as your enterprise goes more mobile, and cloud technology starts seeping into organizations. So we just had to get over our own ego of not doing something that’s super fancy and sexy. But, you know, this is one of the most fundamental problems in computer security. Let’s go see if we can do something different enough to build a compelling business.
JON SAKODA: I think that’s something that was very special about Duo. And just for everybody’s benefit, I think most security products—very expensive firewalls, very expensive threat detection systems—they are primarily bought by big large enterprises, many of them in New York or California or other places where, I guess, you refer to this group as the 1%, the wealthiest of companies that can afford really great security technology. Duo was one of the first companies that really created this trend of trying to bring security to the masses. And you started by offering a very easy to use, very low-cost, easy to download mobile authentication product, so that anybody can have a little additional security on their application by having an additional layer of authentication on their phone, which spread like wildfire and became a big success. But it was counterintuitive.
I’m wondering how much of this maybe came from what you saw in Michigan, and the fact that you were starting a company in Ann Arbor, and you weren’t just talking to the 1%. You were talking to lots of different types of companies and the kinds of problems that they had. How much of an advantage do you think it was that you started the company in Ann Arbor?
JON OBERHEIDE: Yeah, I think it was certainly an advantage, but it changed how we thought about our kind of talent strategy, and who we needed to hire and run the business. I think it was also a little bit of a chip on our shoulder to prove that we didn’t need to be in the Valley, or we didn’t need to be on the East Coast to build a successful company. And I think that chip kind of also came into what we were building, that when we would talk to our colleagues or even early investors and say, “We’re building a multi-factor authentication company,” and people would say, “Wow, that’s boring, not interested.” We had something to prove and overcome there that, “No, this is really important.” And we had so many things that we wanted to show that there was a better way to build products, to serve our customers, and to build a successful business. That was almost in the face of everything that most security companies do.
Your average security startup is like, we’re gonna do some really complicated thing for the top 1%. We’re gonna sell it to financial services through a channel.” And we’re like, no, no. We’re going bottoms up, direct, product-led growth, free trials. Download the software. Hopefully never have to talk to a sales rep. All the things that are kind of like the consumerization of SaaS or product-led growth that we know now, but hadn’t really been applied so much to the security space. So, in a lot of ways, we were copying the best of what other kind of early enterprise SaaS platforms had done.
JON SAKODA: Yeah. You know, this podcast is intended to help founders at the earliest stage. And I know that the company went on to be wildly successful. But it’s always great to look back at the early years when maybe things were a little bit harder. So, tell me about the early years, and specifically, do you remember some of the highest highs and some of the lowest lows when you look at the first and second and, you know, third year of the company, when maybe it wasn’t as obvious that this was gonna be the next big thing?
JON OBERHEIDE: Our first customer we ever had was a doctor’s office, privately owned physician group, called COPCP, Central Ohio Primary Care Physicians. And I believe they’re still a customer to this day. But we actually closed that customer in pretty much the first 30 days of starting the business. And that first customer was really formative, because this was selling to the most discerning end user possible. These were physicians that are executives in their organization. And we were selling to a healthcare customer of these physicians that would travel all around the country and all around the world, and have literal keychains full of hardware tokens for each different medical system that they logged into.
And we actually had a pretty significant outage. And that was a real wake up call for us, because, hey, when you have doctors that can’t log into their system, that’s high, high, severe impact for their business and for their patients that might need medical care. And that just really drove home, what we’re building needs to be usable. It needs to be easy to adopt, easy to manage. We have to build a fast growth consumery business. But at the same time, it needs to be bulletproof. Be simple, but also stand up against the biggest and baddest adversaries on the internet and be rock solid in terms of reliability. So, it informed a lot in how we built our product and our culture, that we always had P0s for our product management frameworks and our business of quality, security, and availability. And those things came before any fun features that we wanted to deliver for our customers.
JON SAKODA: Do you feel in some ways like you got lucky that you had this outage early on, that somehow you could see the impact of having your service not be reliable this early in the development of the product?
JON OBERHEIDE: Yeah. And I think it actually—it caused us to actually slow down in that first year, year and a half. Because we had bootstrapped the company so far. We were just a handful of engineers. And it caused us to sit back and say, hey, before we really launch this thing, before we actually GA, we need to level up a little bit. And so, that’s when we ended up raising a seed round. We were able to hire a little bit more. And then maybe a year and a half into the company is when we first GAed the product, where you could come on the website, sign up for a trial, kick the tires, get it up and running.
JON SAKODA: If you go back to the very beginning, remind me, did you guys almost sell the company?
JON OBERHEIDE: Which time? Is the question.You know, we almost sold the company several times over the history. We did have an acquisition offer from a public company. And we had pursued it. And we were getting close to kind of signing an announcement of this acquisition, which would have been, I think, an interesting sort of tie-up, sort of nontraditional nature. And the CEO of this public company called it off about 48 hours before he intended to announce.
JON SAKODA: Oh wow. Okay. You had fully negotiated the agreement. You’re ready to almost sign the definitive agreements. You’re 48 hours from announcing it. This would’ve been life-changing for you, the company. And it just gets called off.
JON OBERHEIDE: Yeah. And this was the point where not everyone in the company knows about it, but we’ve got, let’s say, a hundred people under the tent that have worked on this deal. And we got the phone call, which was just a complete surprise, out of left field, and had to go back to our team and say, deal’s off. This thing that we thought was a momentous milestone for the company and our shareholders, it’s off. We’re still going. Get back on the road and keep executing.
Now, as it turns out, our team did an amazing job pulling everything back together, continued executing, didn’t really skip a beat. I mean, it was a big distraction for the team, but still hit our numbers. And 18 months later, maybe 24 months later, Cisco came at us and ended up purchasing us for $2.5 billion.
JON SAKODA: The best thing that ever happened was this company walked away.
JON OBERHEIDE: Yeah. Let’s just say that was a significant markup on what this previous transaction would’ve been. So, it was—in hindsight, it would’ve been an interesting partnership, but I think we made the right choice unintentionally with that deal falling through.
JON SAKODA: So now that it’s been 12 years since you started Duo, and you’ve seen every chapter of the book, and you’ve lived through the entire movie, what lessons do you have for your younger self? If you could go back and sit down with the Jon Oberheide in 2009, what would you say?
JON OBERHEIDE: I was very naive. I mean, there’s so many lessons. I was a first-time founder, basically first time in what became an organization. You know, you’re working an internship, you’re working in a PhD program. You’re not really in a traditional functioning organization. And, you know, as a co-founder and CTO, there’s just so many hats to wear. Founder, you’re a board member, you’re executive, you’re CTO, you’re a recruiter, you’re a seller, evangelist, people manager. And that is—it’s a lot. And especially in that technical co-founder role where it’s probably the most unscoped role in a startup. A founding CTO. There’s like five or six different archetypes that you could follow.
And I guess maybe the advice I’d give myself back then and the advice I’d give to early founders these days is like, figure out the intersection of what the company needs and what you’re good at, and hopefully, but not always, what you enjoy doing. So, if you can get all three of those things, it's a bonus. But sometimes you have to do things that you might be good at that the company needs that you might not actually fully enjoy. But then run that exercise every year very frequently to figure out where you need to surround yourself with additional help and leaders that you or your other founders may not be the best at personally.
JON SAKODA: Jon, you more than many coach a lot of early stage founders. I think you run a security founders community, and you are personally invested in and/or advised numerous founders. We’ve done some of that work together. What do you think are some of the most common mistakes that first-time founders make? If you could genericize and try to help everybody out there, what advice would you give them?
JON OBERHEIDE: Yeah. I think maybe it’s like the anti-patterns of not understanding when to hand over the reins to additional leadership within the company. And that’s something I really try to feel out in the early stages. Like, is this founder self-aware? Are they open to feedback? Are they open to different ideas, even if they’re wrong ideas? But are they going to be absorbing information and learnings from the people around them and potentially take them into action if they’re the right things?
JON SAKODA: Hey, Jon, could we go deeper on that? Because I think this is something that a lot of founders struggle with.
JON OBERHEIDE: Mm-hmm.
JON SAKODA: So how do you balance the psychology of doing it all as a founder and needing to be great at it all, which we all know we have to do at the very beginning, with asking for help and learning to delegate and let others do everything for you?
JON OBERHEIDE: Yeah. I think it’s a tough personality balance too, because you want to find founders that are super ambitious and super confident. They’re great recruiters, they’re great storytellers. They can just pitch the hell out of candidates and customers and investors. But you also want to find people that have a little bit of self-doubt, in that maybe they don’t know it all, and maybe they’re not the world’s smartest person. And that was a learning experience for me. I did not have the best sort of empathy and self-awareness skills starting off at the company. And I think that was an interesting balance with Dug and I.
We actually did an exercise on our management team of what makes us successful? Is it heart, smarts, guts, and luck? And pretty much everyone on our management team was like, we’re smart. You know, we’re smart. That’s why we’re successful. And Dug is that balancing force. Dug is like, we’re lucky. That’s why. He’s in the luck category, and believes that if you do the right thing, your chances of being lucky become more frequent or more probable. And that was just a big, big learning experience for me throughout the history of the company.
JON SAKODA: Yeah. In just the last couple minutes, I wanted to ask one more question. So, I know every founder has some PTSD after a long and successful journey. But many founders also are tortured souls and see themselves starting more than one company. So, do you think you are going to start another company? Do you have any plans to start another company? What’s your long-term plan?
JON OBERHEIDE: That’s why I was confused of you calling me a serial entrepreneur. I think about it. You know, after an acquisition, you get lots of questions like that, of like, are you leaving? Are you starting another company? What are you doing next? And I think within Duo and Cisco, there’s still so much—as I mentioned, there’s so much opportunity to go after… We’re a half-billion-dollar SaaS business. There’s not many security companies that reach that scale and still have enough gas in the tank to go to the next level. So there’s a lot of exciting things to still do in the business.
And it’s like—I liken it to running a marathon. And as you cross the finish line, someone puts a microphone in your face and is like, “Do you want to run another marathon?” It’s like, no! What? Like, no way! That’s crazy. At least let me take a shower and get some food and relax a little bit. So that’s how I feel. Certainly no plans to jump into something new or start a new company. But who knows? Years down the road, you get itchy and want to do something else. But I know who I’ll call.
JON SAKODA: Awesome.
JON SAKODA: Awesome. Well, I’m not gonna put you on the spot, Jon, because I know that you still need to take that shower. But, Jon, I just need to say thank you. You’ve been an incredible friend to me and to the other founders that are involved with us here at Decibel. You’ve been a great champion of entrepreneurship to the community. And this has been a lot of fun for me. So, thank you for being with us.
JON OBERHEIDE: Well, thank you, Jon. I think Decibel is a really, not only interesting firm, and you’re great to work with. I’ve seen you work so successfully with a lot of early stage companies. But that’s a great experience as founders coming to Cisco through acquisition, still getting to use their skill-set and scratch that itch through partnerships with folks like Decibel. So, I really appreciate it.